Curse

cellardweller · Jan 18, 2008, 06:28 AM // 06:28

In the weeks following the loot scaling update, I'd often heard people say that just playing the game normally gave a player enough money to get by on the basics. By contrast, I'd often find myself farming just to be able to afford skills and I often hear others say the same.

Faced with these two disparate view points, I thought I'd sit down and measure actual gold income compared with expenditure methodically. To do this I created a new character with the view of taking him through every mission and quest in a single campaign - Nightfall was chosen simply because dervish was the primary class that my account was missing.

Initially I set out with the following rules:

No access to any funds or items obtained from other character
Reason: A new player wouldn’t have access to these funds
No Farming!
Reason: The point of the experiment is to determine whether a player gets enough money without farming.
All primary and secondary quests completed within Nightfall
Reason: The full campaign should be complete
No player to player trade
Reason: Finding bargains or suckers relies on luck and factors outside the game environment
Always play with a full party
Reason: While many parts of the game are easily completed with smaller parties, it does not reflect the difficulty or rewards of the game as designed.
Always use equipment of a level appropriate for the area.
Reason: While many parts of the game are easily completed with substandard equipment, it does not reflect the difficulty or rewards of the game as designed. This does not include any vanity items. Pickup/collector items should be used when they function as well as the crafter equipment, and only when they don’t should items/armour be crafted.
Pick up and sell everything to the merchant except materials needed for crafting
Reason: Self evident. All items should be identified prior to selling from Kourna onwards.
Do not use preorder items
Reason: Not available to most players.
No cheating through ferries etc
Reason: Whilst the ability to exploit a game hole is there, it does not reflect the difficulty or rewards of the game as designed.
Hero points should be used where possible
Reason: Self evident.

At the end of each play session, I would record my character's financial position and any expenses he had. I started recording gold incomes from drops at the start, however this quickly became tiresome so I dropped that off (there are n-1 degrees of freedom, so the income figure can be calculated based on the data presented, if desired). I opted instead for just noting money "boons", such as opening the keyless chests or salvaging gems from daggers.

Early on in the experiment, I found myself unable to continue without breaking at least one of the rules I had set for myself. I had completed the Istan area and yet did not have enough resources to obtain collector/crafter level equipment or runes/insignias, so I was left with a choice of which rule to break:

Stay in Istan and farm until basic equipment had been purchased
Continue on with substandard equipment
Take out a loan and continue

I opted for the last option.

And here are the results!
For those that understandably don’t want to read a ledger detailing the assets of a guildwars character, here’s a summary.
After completing all quests and missions within nightfall including getting a protectors title, I was 46770g in debt.

Whist 46k might seem like a lot of debt, most of the expenses were frontloaded due to the costs of setting up heroes, getting armour sets and whatnot. The amount of debt was definitely going down fast towards the end of the game, and if I had taken the character into Factions it would have disappeared very quickly.

Before starting this experiment, I firmly believed that playing normally gave nowhere near enough gold to equip a character with the basics needed to play, but after I’ll freely admit that that stance is wrong. By the same token, I still believe that saying a player can get everything they need by playing normally is also incorrect, and that the truth lies somewhere between.

If pressed for a new thesis statement, I would say that playing normally provides more than enough gold to fund an established character, but significant amount of farming or borrowing would be required to establish a new one.

A few caveats that may influence interpretations:

I started with UAX, and as such was able to change hero builds on demand. A newer play would have had to spend significantly more money to gain skills for heroes.
I knew all the quests before hand and as such did them in an order that minimised the number of times I had to enter zones and the number of creatures I had to kill.
I reached Kourna around the time that GW:EN was release and as such the runes and material costs were quite high
Having only 4 secondaries unlocked and only a handful of secondary skills, the character was far from being "PvE Ready".

pamelf · Jan 18, 2008, 06:38 AM // 06:38

I don't farm. I only play. I managed to get all the skills I want, and at least two sets of 15k armour on most of my primary characters, as well as all of them equipped with greens. I have more than what I need, and HEAPS of what I want and have never farmed once in my life. I have 13 characters in total, all who have greens and have had no issues getting them by.

I think it depends on the individual player and what they do with the drops they get. Your thesis may agree to your play style, but such sweeping generalizations cannot be applied to all GW players.

BTW, how does one get in debt in a game? :S

o m g pizowned · Jan 18, 2008, 06:41 AM // 06:41

i cleared my account 2 or 3 months ago, all money, mods, armor, chars. after playing through a bit of tyria, i bought 1k armor and runed all my heroes (not with sup vigors or anything, but it was sufficient)
if you aren't whipped on getting full runes and perf weapons for everything, you have PLENTY of gold just playing.

Operative 14 · Jan 18, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Very, very well done. I commend you on your fortitude, I know I would have said screw it and given up quickly.

That is a very interesting outcome you had. I would have thought that the game would have provided for the neccessary expenses, but you certainly proved that incorrect, at least in your case. And that doesn't mention the fact that after you played all the missions with a masters reward (As per your blog postings) and did all the secondary missions, you were still in a pretty good amount of debt, especially for a new player.

However, I wonder if you had played through Prophicies or Factions and you didn't have to outfit heros, if that figure would have been more in keeping with the arguement that people could pay all their expenses just from playing through the game?

Stupid Shizno · Jan 18, 2008, 06:47 AM // 06:47

im actually surprised by this, i believed that playing through the game, would net you enough gold to create 1 set of armor, and 2 sets of weapons crafted (though good drops will come and expect you to keep them creating more sets).

Also, i think what set you in debt was your limit of "completion", im sure you had a supeior vigor, which in pve this is not on every char. same with a supeior rune of your scyth mastery ill assume.

im sure if you oppted to not upgrade armor and continue in game, you would not be in debt, yet find your seling being a hassle to yourself or pug/guild groups.

either way, very interesting information this has brought up, and will easily agree with your statement, a char will have no problems with gold if it is already established more so then creating a char from scratch.

{IceFire} · Jan 18, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Very nice, I'm impressed by your thoroughness. Surprising results...

arsie · Jan 18, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

The only issue I see is this.

If you have done all the free Prophesies skill quests for all 6 professions, you are very likely not to ever need to borrow any gold at all, as your heroes should have the skills to pull you through. Even if you bill all the costs for skills to your new character, you should be doing fine.

But that kinda weirds up your experiment. I think not having skills on your heroes is probably the biggest stumbling block, and likely the most expensive hurdle to overcome.

Having said that, I think it will be hard not to do anything resembling farming. I think that some 8-man farming for collector drops is required to outfit your heroes, not to mention the character.

The issue with new characters vs new players, is that new players will likely end up spending a heapload of gold on skills that they will not use regularly. It can be really efficient if a player knows the exact builds they want and just pays for those specific skills/caps only.

cellardweller · Jan 18, 2008, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

I think it depends on the individual player and what they do with the drops they get. Your thesis may agree to your play style, but such sweeping generalizations cannot be applied to all GW players.

Much like any conclusion drawn from a sample size of one, its meant for qualitative discussion rather than a statement of fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

And that doesn't mention the fact that after you played all the missions with a masters reward (As per your blog postings) and did all the secondary missions, you were still in a pretty good amount of debt, especially for a new player.

As I said in the OP, lot of the expenditure happened around the time of GW:EN's release. If you rebought the same equipment at today's prices, you'd probably halve the final debt figure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

However, I wonder if you had played through Prophicies or Factions and you didn't have to outfit heros, if that figure would have been more in keeping with the arguement that people could pay all their expenses just from playing through the game?

Nightfall had the free chests which payed for ~1/3 of the hero's equipment, however one thing I did find was that the collectors in nightfall were sorely lacking. The vast majority of them were simply unuable due to rubish mod like -2/stance focii and 15^50 wands. Factions collectors are much more practical and located early in the game, having access to them would have reduced the costs quite a bit. Additionally, I picked up only a couple of peices of usable equipment once off Istan, so while nightfall has the inscription advantage it did not factor into the results at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stupid Shizno

im sure if you oppted to not upgrade armor and continue in game, you would not be in debt, yet find your seling being a hassle to yourself or pug/guild groups.

I knew that I, as a player with 2.5k hours under their belt, could have comfortably finished the game with newbie island armour and half a skillbar*, the problem with doing this would be that I would get to the end and I'd have a log of someone that was scrimping, not playing normally. Using the collectors and crafters available to define "standard equipment for the zone" gave me objective limits to define how difficult the game should be.

*(well maybe not all, even with a fully equiped character and heroes I only scraped through "the troubled keeper" on my third attempt).

arsie · Jan 18, 2008, 07:26 AM // 07:26

With regards to runes, I believe the game can be completed without expensive runes, and stuff like Sup. Vigor just distorts the experiment. If this character just happen to find one, the story is ~15k different from if it could not.

Raku Clayman · Jan 18, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

How one defines "normal" changes one's results at the end. For me, I would define it a little differently.

1) From my experience with other RPG's, I know to pick up every item that drops and there are titles to earn, like Vanquisher. So, it would not be out of the ordinary to kill everything in an area to accumulate items that would be merched and enhance ones take. Also, since some materials are necessary for upgraded weapons and armor, salvaging some things while playing would be acceptable and necessary once my slots are all full and I can't carry any more items. That would keep me from having to buy iron, etc. at the high merchant rate.

2) I would allow for the occasional sale of items to other players. Sometimes, through luck a player gets an item that, for various reasons, is worth more than one could get from the merchant, like certain dyes. I differentiate between posting a WTS and reading a WTB. A new player may not know the price of certain items so posting a WTS would be illegal, but, reading a WTB at a certain price would be acceptable in my world. I would make one exception, and that is, a new player could determine the buy price and sell price of, lets say, a black dye, by checking at the dye trader and then offer the dye at the price halfway between the buy and the sell price. Also, if I am lucky enough to have a desirable weapon drop, I should be able to sell it to someone who posts a WTB for that item. After all, the trade section is there for everyone to see.

3) One thing I noticed early in the game, that made a big difference is the price of runes from rune drops. After IDing the rune, most of the time it is better to sell the unsalvaged rune to the merchant, as is, instead of salvaging it. The rune trader only pays 25g for most runes.

4) In the course of the game, a person learns necessary things to be a better player. Accumulating Lightbringer points is one of those things. And, when one gets to the Remains of Sahlahja any "normal" player learns to join a group and accumulate LB points in a Worm. Is farming LB points, really considered farming? The secondary benefit to leveling up ones LB points is more and better items to take to the merchant. Having a higher level of LB skill, in the later missions makes that game a lot more fun and almost necessary.

The first time I played the game, I did all the quests and missions with just heroes and henchies. I didn't know the price of things and all my items went to the merchant. I ended up with about 40K, even after upgrading all my armor and purchasing skills for my char. I did this in prophesies with pretty much the same rules you used for your test and my additions, except for #4, which didn't allow for the accumulation of LB or SS points.

Div · Jan 18, 2008, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Great experiment. However, subsequent chapters were designed in a way to be much less starter-friendly in terms of learning curve and growth curve. Furthermore, runes or perfect weapons aren't going to be needed for a new player. Only an experiment done in tyria would truly reflect whether or not a starter would have enough money.

garethporlest18 · Jan 18, 2008, 07:49 AM // 07:49

I think your problem was you put runes into your heroes. I've never done that besides a major or superior rune here and there and I'm still successful at the game. Also I don't see how it would cost that much money to get 1k armor, that's all you need really. With the free chests, doing all the secondary and primary quests you should have made around 100k.

But maybe I misread something, somewhere.

Washi · Jan 18, 2008, 07:50 AM // 07:50

I have legendary skill hunter, few 15k armors, nice weapons, fully equiped heroes, and I never farmed to get all this stuff. I only started farming when I decided I want FOW armor. Anything you need you can get from playing the game. You only need to farm for elite stuff (fow armor, high end weapons, chaos gloves, etc.)

arsie · Jan 18, 2008, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Collector weapons and cheap runes will go the distance. They only thing you cannot cheap out on are skills, for yourself and heroes.

I am not sure what the real objective of the experiment is though. I have only ever funded one character, and that was to fast-track him into getting me all the free Prophesies skills for 2 professions. He is now a level 16 mule. I have hardly ever solo/dual farmed, and hardly ever traded. I do not think that I have bought or sold anything over 5k.

I could not afford a full set 15k armour upon the completion of Protector of X by the storyline route. But max armour and all the max stat weapons and runes for the character and heroes are definitely affordable. (Again, unless you want rare skins and Sup. Vigor on all your heroes...)

Red Sonya · Jan 18, 2008, 08:08 AM // 08:08

You shouldn't have used heroes or equiped them as other chapters only use henchmen. Thus your study is flawed by you using your cash to outfit something else besides yourself. Heroes are not a necessity because there are always henchmen to fill any open slots without ever using heroes. Now go back and do it without ever using heroes as you would have had to do had you started in Factions or Prophecies.

cellardweller · Jan 18, 2008, 08:20 AM // 08:20

A couple of other points that bear mentioning:

SS reached L8 before I'd even finished Vabbi and LB finished at L3 (2,094 - almost L4).

The whole time through, I did not need to spend a cent on either ID kits or salvage kits, despite id'ing everything and salvaging when appropriate. Additionally, I finished with enough quest reward items to see myself through 2 more repeat performances. If you're finding yourself spending large amounts of money on kits, you should look to the quest reward items for a good source.

strcpy · Jan 18, 2008, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Also loot scaling had no impact on your experiment at all as full parties are not affected. In fact, all of us at one time or another pretty much did that (new players aren't going to solo farm until VERY late in the game if for no other reason than getting the needed skills) and as of right now the income is *exactly* the same (loot scale doesn't affect full parties) and prices are at an all time low. All you did was show that a new player can not equip his character as fully as an experienced player would like and, well, I can't say I'm terribly surprised.

Next time try and play with only what you *need* and there is a good deal of stuff there you list that you don't need that cost quite a bit (especially on your heroes). You should be able to even afford some stuff you *want*.

Heck, I started Prophecies back in the day that the vast majority wax on about for hours upon end about gold flowing in - when I made it to thunderhead keep I was able to purchase my *first* superior rune because I couldn't come close to affording a 105monk build, didn't have access to the skills needed to farm all but the lowest areas, and everything was *extremely* expensive. Those times were only good for the farmers, for the new players it was bad - MUCH worse than now. the only reason I could get my 1.5k armor was because I had read on the forums to begin storing up materials otherwise I would not have been able to afford anything past Maguuma Jungle for much the same reason (I used collectors before droks). Had I done your experiment back then I would have been well over 46k in the hole just purchasing the 1.5k armors let alone runes and such (remember that back then when you expert salvaged you only had a chance at the runes in the armor so those tended to be re-purchased fairly often). If I had heroes it would have been even worse. Of course, it was also easier to get a lucky drop - but then many of us were not terribly lucky.

Since we are coming up on three years it is probably a bit late to complain about new players not making enough.

Longasc · Jan 18, 2008, 08:40 AM // 08:40

You outlined some things you did and did not.

But reading your blog...

* you put RADIANT insignia that you bought on almost all your heroes. Survivors were a better choice IMO, but also cost some money.

*Plus attunement runes. This is quite on the expensive side. Add in MAJOR Vigor Runes for the Heroes.

* You spend 90% of your money on your heroes. I know richer players that equip their heroes worse.

We could also make another calculation: Not how much money you spent, but how much you really need.

* Let us assume 20 player skills, 1K per skill (it is much less initially) = +20K
* For our heroes, let us assume 20 more, +20K = 40K
* Player armor and Insignia: Let us assume 1.5K per armor piece (including Insignia) and 1.5K for Minor Vigor, 6x1,5K => +9K = 49K.
* Weapons: Player plus Heroes, max stuff, 2K per weapon and maybe a shield ~ 10K = 59K.
* Add in Minor Vigor for 6 Heroes: +9K = 68K.

Would have been nice to see what money you MADE, not only the +/- result. I think you lived over your abilities, I could not afford a Major Vigor rune for my Warrior in Prophecies as I entered Droknar's Forge.

This calculation above is for the early phase, and nobody really says your heroes need to be maximized in equipment right after you leave Istan. This also assumes you never used hero skill points to save money and stuff like that.

You also steered as quickly as possible to the last mission, to the end of the game. It seems you gained zero money from strolling around.

Your heroes are well equipped, and I think you are right, equipping them well should also be considered very important. But you have overdone there and totally skewed the result.

Estic · Jan 18, 2008, 08:50 AM // 08:50

I started a rit in Factions with the same purpose. After I got away from the island I had max armor (a combination of collectors (the chest piece) and crafters). When I passed Nahpui Quarter I had 10k in the bank. After that I stopped because it had proven the point actually. You can do it easily on drops.

I think the reason you did not have enough money to get 1k armor after Istan was because you kept upgrading your armor at every turn. I can remember when I first started a character, it did not have armor equivalent to the area it was in all the time. I actually hunted for the armor collectors stuff to equip my character(s). I made a nice sum of money selling the leftovers in the Maguuma Jungle (these where the pre-factions days).

Another point is equipping your heroes with runes. What for? They are more than powerful enough without anything but good weapons (even then they dont need perfects). For example the staff Zhed is carrying when you get him will serve very well in all of NM. If you do want more from them (or don't have UAX) there are always henchies.

So all in all, I agree with your statement that it's not enough IF you follow your rules. I do not agree on a general statement though because it's easily doable in my experience.

Edit: I'm wondering what you mean by stating your char was not pve ready because it had only a few secondaries and skills unlocked. I have a necro who has finished 2 out of 3 campaigns (still at ring of fire because I'm too lazy to finish). He has done a couple of vanquishes in Elona/Cantha and has only 2 secondaries unlocked. For most of PvE you only need 1 or 2 combos, the rest is just for show IMHO.

Snow Bunny · Jan 18, 2008, 08:57 AM // 08:57

I've tried this experiment before.

The only thing an experienced player has over the new player in this discussion is knowledge of what to buy.

You do understand that a character can be fully equipped with half decent gear for 15k?

It's true. I did it half a month ago, with a dervish as you did, except...my expenditures came out a little below 15k. I also got survivor r1 on this.

Screenie coming, with /age and equipment pics :P